Name: You Are Not Alone in This: A Conversation on Pregnancy and Infant Loss
Uploaded: 2026-10-16T09:46:47.467Z
Duration: 44 min 4 s
Description: You Are Not Alone in This: A Conversation on Pregnancy and Infant Loss

Transcript for "You Are Not Alone in This: A Conversation on Pregnancy and Infant Loss": Hello. Hello, everyone. Thank you for people who have already started to pour in here. We're so excited to have this conversation with you here today. To get us started, I always like to warm up the chat a little bit first before we start talking. Let us know where you're at, where you're joining us from. I know I'm outside of... I'm in the DMV. I'm outside of DC. I'm on the Maryland side for people who are trying to get to DC. Doctor Zucker, where are you located? I am in sunny Los Angeles where it is way too hot for it to be mid October. Oh my gosh. I'm kinda jealous though a little bit. Don't be. I'm seeing alt please. Yeah. San Diego, North Carolina, Colorado, New Jersey, Georgia, Ohio. If you're still trickling in, we're just letting everybody know where we're joining from, giving people a few minutes to hop on here with us. Another Florida. Cool. Richmond. You're closest to me so far. Very cool. Hi, Lisa from Parker, Arizona. Thanks for joining us. We'll be here for just a few more minutes. 03:00 is sometimes a tough time. It's like that post lunch stretch, so we wanna give people a little bit of time to join in here. North Carolina, Arizona. Yes. We have such a great conversation queued up for you all here today. It's really cool to see where everybody's joining us here from. And if you're just trickling in, let us know in the chat. Where are you from? Where are you joining us from? Ohio. There's a lot of Ohio. Chat always makes me a little bit nosy because I'm like, do you all know each other? Is it close? Are you close to each other? Ohio, Wisconsin. Justine, you might be our first Wisconsin. You win. You represent the whole state. Woah. I'll give us about thirty more seconds here. Other Arizona. Hi, Fawn. Thanks for joining us. Cool. Well, yes. Welcome, everybody. I'm gonna start kicking us off here because we have an absolutely incredible human here with us today, and I want you to get all... Everything that she has to say. So welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us. October 15 is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Remembrance Day, and we're gathering during Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month to talk about something that touches so many people, yet is rarely spoken about openly. In The United States, one in four recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage, and yet the silence and the stigma often leave people feeling most alone exactly when they need the support the most. I'm Doctor. Bree Beverly. I'm a licensed professional counselor. I'm also a nationally certified counselor with a PhD in philosophy, specializing in health psychology. And I serve as the senior care experience lead here at Empathy, where I lead the managers and the frontline team that provide that day to day support and care to families navigating loss. I have spent over a decade at this point working across direct clinical practice, clinical supervision, strategy, and product development, all in the efforts of building ways to deliver real human care at scale without losing the human connection that's really at the center of it all. And I I have the absolute pleasure of being joined here today with doctor Jessica Zucker. Doctor. Zucker is a clinical psychologist and the author of two award winning books, Normalize It, Abending the Silence, Stigma, and Shame that Shapes Women's Lives, and I Had a Miscarriage, a memoir and a movement. I love it, the visuals, because I was very familiar with I Had a Miscarriage before I even got the pleasure of meeting doctor Zucker. But if you didn't know, she's also the creator of the viral hashtag I had a miscarriage campaign, and her writing has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, New York Magazine, Vogue, and Harvard Business Review, among others. She has been featured on NPR, CNN, The Today Show, Good Morning America, and has earned her advanced degrees from NYU and Harvard. Doctor. Zucker had joined us in empathy in 2025 as our pregnancy loss expert, And so much of what you'll hear here today draws from both her clinical background and her own lived experience. Doctor Zucker, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be with you and especially on October 15 when so many people can deeply relate to the topic or are simply interested in supporting those around them that have been touched by this very challenging experience. Yeah. Yeah. This conversation is really for everyone here today and everyone who may have even experienced this pregnancy or infant loss themselves, if they're supporting someone who has, or if they're simply here to learn too, we're here to be a support to them. I would love, doctor Zucker, if you would like to start us off with, a bit of, some context around. your whole expertise in here. Well, I I thought I would actually start by reading something that I wrote, for my I had a miscarriage campaign several years back. It's very brief. It's for Instagram, but it kind of sums up in a very important way for me how I feel about the topic and about the cultural conversation and lack thereof. So it starts with hashtag I had a miscarriage. I had a second trimester miscarriage. This is a fact of my life, an experience that changed who I am. Pregnancy after pregnancy loss changed me all the more. I have no shame. No self blame. No guilt. I did nothing wrong. I did nothing to deserve this. My body works. I don't feel it failed. I embrace my grief fully and allow it to wash over me. I grieve still. I don't believe rainbow babies replace our lost loves. When we lean into heartache, we evolve. When we work vigorously to stave it off, we drown. I don't believe everything happens for a reason. I know I am not alone, nor are you. This campaign is here for anyone who has experienced any type of pregnancy or infant loss. We are here to share stories with the aim of softening stigma and ushering in connection. Let this space be a lifeline, an anchor, a community. On October 15, pregnancy and infant loss remembrance day, we acknowledged what we know year round. Our grief matters. Our love matters. Our pain deserves time and space. Wow. That was so powerful. There... There's so much there that will build off of, that you've read for us here today. There is so much about the emotion, the guilt, the shame, understanding that their bodies are still working as planned and we're here to be a support for people who are navigating this because it's something we don't talk about enough. And I appreciate how much even through what you just read there that you are such a support to people in all ways, even on social. media and here today. Thank you. Yeah. To give a bit of context about sort of how I got here, why I'm here, So as you mentioned, I'm a Los Angeles based psychologist, and I specialize in women's reproductive and maternal mental health and have done so for almost twenty years at this point. And interestingly, you know, I have a background in public health and I had worked internationally in women's health and women's rights, prior to pursuing my PhD. And so I was just in awe of the topic more broadly. I had not lived through anything firsthand that sort of, you know, led me to this, area of interest. And then sixteen weeks into my second pregnancy, I had a miscarriage while I was home by myself. You know, I I could get into all of the detail. I I won't unless people, you know, want me to. It's it's in my books. But, you know, suffice it to say that it, of course, changed the course of my professional and my personal life. And so, I had been sitting for years across from women and families talking about the pain and the anguish associated with losing pregnancies, losing infants. And up until that point, it was really just theoretical. I had read all the books. I had gone to the conferences. I thought I knew as much as I could know about the topic. And then here I was in their shoes. And, of course, everybody's experience is unique and different and lands, you know, in a variety of ways for various reasons for different people. But suddenly, I felt sort of emboldened. I felt almost required to use my experience and my professional background to say something, to Yeah. try to make some sort of dent, albeit as little as it probably has been, in the cultural conversation and lack thereof. And so my loss was back in 2012, but... So in 2014, that's when I launched the I had a miscarriage campaign campaign with my first New York Times piece, and it was a real sort of global call. It was an invitation for people to, once and for all, feel a sense of safety around talking about what they've been through. Yeah. I think so much about the isolation of that period and so much of, what pregnancy and infant loss is... It is to hold it to yourself, and you've been such a pillar in starting those conversations more openly. And that's actually a great bridge to what I wanted to ask you first today because we're here so intentionally on October 15. And, doctor Zucker, I'm wondering if you could start us off with why should we spend time on pregnancy and infant loss remembrance day? What what does it do to name this openly even once a year, and what. does it do for people? I think this is a brilliant question. I think it's so important on a variety of levels. Number one, it honors grief. It honors love. It honors the women and families who have walked this path. And therefore, in a way, it legitimizes it. And number two, you know, piggybacking on legitimizing, it normalizes the conversation. And so even if it hasn't touched somebody, hopefully, they see a headline or hopefully, they read about it somewhere or, you know, see it on Instagram, that this is a month that's dedicated to awareness and that this is a day that is about remembrance. Why is that important? Because it's happening far too often for us to continue to kind of squash down, you know, smush our feelings and play by the cultural rules that currently exist around grief when it comes to pregnancy and infant loss. Far too. often, people feel a pressure to return to who they were before or to focus on the silver lining, when people may need time, people may need space to really understand what they're feeling, what they're going through, when can they return to work, can, you know, they engage in the lives that they knew prior to this potentially devastating experience. And so, the day and the month really sort of embraces the fact that this is real. One in four pregnancies result in miscarriage, as you said. I think it's about one in one hundred and sixty in stillbirth and so on. And it's not a disease. Nobody's searching for a cure, right? So, it's unfortunately a normative outcome of pregnancy, albeit heartbreaking. And so, that's yet another reason why it needs to be folded into the conversation on a yearly basis. I mean, hopefully more often, but just being marked in October, is vital. Yeah. Yeah. So well said. There's grief that socially we're more open to talking about, but there's something about pregnancy and infant loss that is such a... Often a hidden loss and something that you brought... You brought up in the workplace. So I'm thinking about something a coworker might be carrying without anyone else knowing, and the silence still exists. And I'm curious what you think would make it easier to talk about this type of loss. Yeah. It is... It's tricky in the workplace, I imagine. I work for myself, and in my situation, I talk about this, quite a bit in my first book, that I didn't have HR to turn to. I don't have HR. Right? I work on my own. And so I actually had to turn to myself, to my support system, and really sort of ask if people had tidbits of advice for me. When should I return to work? How do I tell my patients? How do I tell my colleagues? You know, so how... Because, again, there is no apparatus and there's no rule book, we sort of have to figure it out for ourselves. And in my situation, it was particularly challenging because I work with people going through similar things. And because I was far along, it was very obvious that I was pregnant and that had been acknowledged with my patients, and I did not want to stay gone long. I felt like my absence might scare them, and I didn't want to kind of, you know, infuse them with more anxiety, than maybe they're already dealing with. I also didn't want them to feel like they had to somehow care for me. So, admittedly, I think I went back to work too quickly, because I really didn't feel like laying in bed or staying at home was going to be the answer for me. So I I felt like I wanted to return to the work I do because of how meaningful it is to me and because I didn't want people to begin to worry that I wasn't returning to work at all. Yeah. That being said, the conversations upon returning to work and having to acknowledge what happened, and I I tried to keep it brief, but a lot of my patients had been with me for a while and, of course, wanted to know or made assumptions about maybe how, the pregnancy loss unfolded. And I found myself in very uncomfortable, uncharted territory because I needed to answer questions directly. I wanted, of course, to be open and honest, but again, I didn't want to, provide so much detail that I scared them, for their future pregnancies or situations. So, you know, in answer to your question, my specific case is so unique, I think. But I think in a workplace environment, it can be tricky because how personal can we be? Do we feel entitled to take up space with our emotional experiences in the workplace? And yet, the thing is that people don't seem to kind of think through when they think about pregnancy loss because oftentimes, my patients tell me that the quick thing that they hear after is, Well, you'll just try again. At least you know you can get pregnant. You know, you can just, try again as soon as possible. Well, there's emotion, and there are also physical and psychological factors that can take place, of course, in the immediate aftermath of loss and and it could go on for a long time depending on, the situation. And so in a way, we have to have the presence of mind, which, you know, one could argue isn't really fair that it's incumbent upon us to kind of figure out what it is that we need, but we we have to evaluate for ourselves somehow. Can I be here? Am I capable of getting through this day? And as I was mentioning, you know, there's the physical element. Maybe still bleeding. Maybe the hormones are adjusting and you're not feeling like yourself. Maybe someone's milk is even coming in depending on the, you know, how far along somebody was. So there's so many factors to consider. And I think, though, as a colleague, if it's acknowledged that this has happened, just saying, I'm here for you. I'm here to listen if you'd like to talk about it. And and really trying not to do what culture does, which is rush us along and even try to fix things. There's nothing to fix. Nobody wants to be fixed. Nobody needs to be fixed. And as uncomfortable as grief is, we have to sort of bask in it sometimes in order to get to the other side. Yes. Yes. You mentioned so much there about the perception of the people around you. Everyone was there to join in the celebration of, oh my gosh. You're pregnant. And then when you're in this moment of now you are the only person maybe in this ecosystem that knows what you are carrying, that, that comfort to first disclose that. And then when that person discloses it, how is that being received, and how are we saying something back to them that's supportive? And I do have some questions for you, in reference to how we can be a better support to people a little bit later in this. But I wanna go first maybe a little bit deeper into the experience of loss itself because you had talked about. even you went back to work maybe a bit sooner than you needed to, and there's so many people and so many conversations that we're having that kind of skip over what are people carrying while they're going back and continuing their lives. And you've written and spoken so openly about your own loss, and I'm wondering what do you wish someone would have told you in that first week? Oh, that's a powerful one. I wish someone would have simply said... Like, I wish somebody would have acknowledged the profundity while remaining present with it. Right? So what I got more of, I guess, was it's going to be okay. The doctor said this and that. Like, you know, now we have the chromosomal information. We know why this happened. We can try again. It it was future facing. Or others were saying, like, at least you have a healthy child. At least you have a thriving career. So it was sort of looking at either not the past, but, you know, the the present stuff that I should be grateful for. And so I think what we... You know, where we can do better is really seeing if we can be present without changing anything. And part of why this is so challenging is because it's uncomfortable. We're. not well versed in sitting in grief and not trying to do anything about it. And so, yeah, I think comfort comes when somebody simply says, I'm here for you. I also think that people can say... You know, just... You can acknowledge it. You could say, I haven't been through this, or I've been through something similar, but all experiences are a bit different. I wanna be here for you. I may not know exactly what to say, but I'm gonna try. I'm gonna show up. Yeah. Yeah. And when it comes to the emotions that that person who just experienced the pregnancy and and... Or infant loss, I'm sure there are some that probably come up that are a bit surprising. And they're sitting with this, so I'm really curious... Or they might feel guilty or. whatever the case might be. And I'm curious, what are some of those emotions or some of those experiences that are a bit surprising when a person is in that moment? Well, I... What I found incredibly surprising and befuddling and and incredibly troubling, which is kind of why I started to write so much about the topic, is that the research shows that a majority of women actually feel a sense of guilt and shame and self blame in the aftermath of loss. And yet we know from the science that a majority of miscarriages are due to chromosomal abnormalities. So how is this happening? Right? And this is a deeper cultural problem that I take on in my second book, where I'm talking about sort of from a tender age, girls and women are, you know, kind of taught to think that we are the arbiters of what happens to us, as if somehow we are in charge of chromosomes. I mean, of course, people know that they're not, but the amount of times that I have heard people say, you know, what if it's because I exercised? What if it's because I had that sip of wine before before, you know, I knew I was pregnant? What if it's because, you know, I had sex? What if I wanted to be a mother too much, or what if I didn't wanna be a mother badly enough? Right? So this is... These are examples oftentimes of magical thinking, and this surprises me. I come from a medical family, so... And I... So I... I'm always trying to figure out why is it that I didn't blame myself when it seems like so many people do. Number one, I think maybe because I already did have a healthy child, I assumed that it meant something was wrong with the fetus. And, in a way, what's interesting is, you know, miscarriage often is because something's not going right. And rather than look at that, I think that a lot of people are... We get caught in this control cycle. So it's like, if I did something wrong, the next time I won't do that thing, and it will go right. And so it's this illusion that we can control the outcome the next time. But some other surprising things, you know, I don't know if it's surprising, but sometimes people, you know, feel a sense of, self isolation, which can be really tricky. And again, I sort of think that that is a manifestation of the silent stigma and shame that swirls in our society. And sometimes people, understandably, are quite angry. But when patients of mine turn that anger on themselves, I get concerned. You know? And sometimes these feelings, these understandable feelings, are turned on oneself, maybe not consciously, but, again, with the hope that they can shield themselves from the pain. Again, they don't... We don't know that we're doing this, but if we're just angry and we're feeling like, you know, this isn't fair and everybody else that I know, you know, is pregnant or has stayed pregnant or hasn't gone through this, which, of course, isn't true since we know the statistics, but that's how it can feel. It can stave off sinking into the pain. So sometimes I just invite a patient to kind of, what are you feeling right now? Or, you know, what if you did nothing wrong? And the look of surprise on their face, what if you did nothing wrong, often turns into a rush of tears. Why? Because it's such a relief and because they hadn't even considered it and because now they think, maybe that's true. That's such a powerful story of of the guilt and shame that happens and the permission that you're giving people in these sessions to accept that maybe they couldn't have out controlled this. Exactly. Maybe there were no parameters. Maybe this was just how it happened. And I appreciate you taking so much time talking about the people who have built this, that perspective on their emotions. But I'm also wondering about the people who maybe don't feel like their grief is valid. Maybe they had a really early pregnancy before their loss happened, and... Or maybe people around them don't even know they were pregnant yet. before this happened. Yes. What do you say to someone who feels like their grief is invalid? Yeah. I mean, it's it's too common not to acknowledge a a chemical pregnancy, for example. You know? And and and... But then I have heard countless times, oh, well, at least it happened early. Like, they're they're kind of blaming themselves or they're minimizing it themselves. You know? It's like, well, at least I wasn't very far along or, you know, I don't feel I have the right to grieve. I mean, no one even knew that I was pregnant. And this gets, you know, into very, important territory because why... Who gets to decide what's important when it comes to grief, or are we sort of in the grief Olympics here? Why does somebody get a larger award if they had a later loss? That's not fair. And what, you know, I get concerned about from a psychological perspective is oftentimes we bring our histories to whatever, of course, is happening in the present. And so, somebody's six week loss could be with them for sixteen years, whereas another person who has a six week loss, maybe, you know, six months later, they're, you know, moved on to something else. They still acknowledge it, but they're not kind of deep in that pain. And so we bring our histories to the present day experience. Yeah. Yeah. That's so helpful, and I appreciate you double clicking on that of that... The experience of someone's grief and how all things... If it's a loss to you, it's a loss to us. So how do we then support you and whatever's showing up for you in that way? So I appreciate your perspective on that. Along those same lines, I kinda want you to break it to us, doctor Zucker. What are the well meaning things that people say that actually land poorly, badly when we are trying to support someone who is experiencing this? Yeah. I mean, I probably already shared some. And and it's interesting though because as you say, you know, they're well meaning, And these statements can come from loved ones. They can come from partners. They can come from best friends. They can come from neighbors and colleagues. And I don't think that people mean to make people feel worse than they already do. But even something like, at least you know you can get pregnant, that's a tough one. Look, for one person hearing that, oh, yeah, you're right. Maybe at least I can get pregnant. Maybe I'll focus on that. For the majority of people, that doesn't land very well. Why? They wanted this pregnancy and it's not a scientific thing to say. Just because this person got pregnant, they lost the pregnancy. So, there... That doesn't give them any assurance about the future. So it's it's misguided, you know, and it's sort of... It's acting in a way as like a psychic or a sorcerer or a doctor, and it's not great territory to get into, I don't think. So that's one. And, you know, at least you're young, commenting on people's age, all of the phrases that start with at least. At least you have a healthy child. At least you have a thriving career. At least you were ambivalent about having another child. That's kind of a pretty strange one. Why do we do that? Again, we are trying to shore up what people call sever line. We're trying to... What what we think we're doing is trying to help the person see that they have good things in their lives and that there's still hope. But what we need to do instead is assume that this person knows there's hope because they've lived a life and probably they've been through hard things. And what would help more is something like, I'm here for you. I wanna be supportive. Your pain is meaningful. You know, and little iterations of those things. You know, you don't have to say... And nothing needs to to be long and nothing needs to be eloquent and it doesn't have to be practiced. I think it needs to be authentic and it needs to be consistent if possible. So I've been using examples of early pregnancies, with your with your prior question, but I do think this is a moment where it would be important to get into later losses. So for example, if somebody has a stillbirth, that person may have delivered the baby. They may have held the baby. They may have dressed the baby. Their milk most definitely has come in or will come in. They will probably be offered handprints or footprints, locks of hair, and then they will have to deal with birth and death certificates and maybe be offered, you know, how do you want to memorialize? So, a funeral, some sort of ceremony, cremation. In these situations, it is that much more important that the support be consistent. Right? So we we don't need to assume how people feel. And so if somebody has, let's say, a six week loss, again, I'm not saying the pain can be... Pain is pain. But if somebody has a six week loss, I'm not saying that, like, the the best friend should, you know, six years later bring it up like, oh, I'm sure you're still in so much pain. No. We shouldn't assume. Just ask. Like, how are you feeling? You know? I know today was your due date or I know today is the anniversary of your loss, and I just wanted to check-in. But with somebody, let's say, with a stillbirth or an infant loss, there's a lot going on and and potentially for a long, long time, if not, you know, until the end of time. And so the support might look a bit different and, is that much more important, you know, for the community to acknowledge the intensity of this. And so, again, just in a... In some sort of consistent way, it can be remarkable to to be there. Yeah. Thank you for first grounding us in the the best ways to approach this conversation and how to remain present Because I think you said something really important there about our discomfort in trying to support someone who we see is grieving can lead to us to wanting solutions and wanting to, like, find the silver lining, but that's helping us That's right. our discomfort and not that individual. So I. I really appreciate you grounding us back to you. If you're here to be a support, let's make sure it's for that person and here's how you say these things. So, powerful. I I should add here. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, everybody has different, opinions on this probably, but, what I've heard so much from patients, you know, is hearing stuff like everything happens for a reason, God has a plan, God doesn't give you more than you can handle. Now, again, you know, if if someone's spirituality or real... Religiosity jives with that, that's one thing. But to put that on somebody, if you don't really know what their belief system is, can be incredibly off putting and and painful. So I just wanted to be sure to include that as well. Yeah. I appreciate you calling that out, that the things that comfort us may not be a comfort to someone else. And I think that goes back to a lot of what you were saying before too of, like, if you don't know what to say, you can say that. You can say, hey. I know you're going through something. I don't know how to be here with you right now, but know that I'm here and then do that consistently. Exactly. It doesn't that just sound kind of... It sounds simple. And I think it's kind of fascinating and troubling how much we swirl and say these things where we put our feet in our mouth and then alienate people who are in throes of of deep grief when it's it's quite... Actually quite simple to be loving and. to be present and to just offer support in in small ways. Yeah. You've certainly made it feel simple for us, doctor Zucker. With all of the things that you are giving us from the from the books to this moment, they're, I used the word empowering before and I used that word very, intentionally here that you, I feel like you're equipping us with a way to have that conversation. And I wanna talk to you about the ways in which we equip people at empathy, through empathy, through pregnancy and infant loss as well. The first thing that I really want people to know is that when you reach out to us at Empathy, we'll connect you to the resources and the support you need. And just as importantly, there is someone to walk alongside you. And every single family has access to a care manager who is a real person, who is trained from this beautiful mind that is that is here with us today. A lot of her insights have gotten us to this point here where we can say now that our our staff is trained in navigating this kind of loss, and they stay along with that individual. Because one of the hardest parts of loss is that the grief and the logistics land at the exact same time. And often when people don't have capacity for either of them, honestly. So practically, one of the things that nobody is prepared for and some of the things that we support with are things like navigating the medical bills and the insurance, understanding leave and benefits, handling canceled baby registries or deliveries, supporting memorial and burial arrangements, really taking those tasks on because they can be such painful reminders of, what they are going through, and we really wanna be here to be a support to them and take those things off their plate as we can. And then because we're not just the practical side, we're also the emotional side of things as well. We also connect people to grief sources, guided support, connections to counselors or support groups who are specialized in pregnancy and infant loss so that people can find not only the right support, but the right support for right now. And above all, when I talk about empathy and how we are a support to people during this time, I really want people to feel supported whatever their loss looks like. I had mentioned before if it's a loss to you, it's a loss to us. That's a bit of our our, background motto here. And it includes the spouses and the partners and their support system too. All of those individuals who are also experiencing loss in a different way can be supported by empathy as well. And we... I talk about all... I keep saying we because I'm talking about you mostly here, doctor Tucker. And... Because we did not build this support alone, and we wanted it shaped by the people who have not only studied it extensively, but also lived it. And you've partnered so closely with us, doctor Zucker, here at Empathy, being our content expert with using all your experience. And from your background, I'm curious what felt most critical to include in your support with empathy. You know, I guess it's really sort of to reiterate, and I... It sounds cliche and and trite, but, like, my sincere hope is that people around the world understand that there is absolutely no shame in loss and that you are not alone. And you can feel incredibly alone through the process because of the cultural silence. But I think that with companies like empathy and these kinds of conversations, people hopefully can feel comfortable replacing the silence with storytelling. And through those stories, understanding in a real concrete and deep way that they aren't alone, that so many people have lived this. And that although it's, you know, a club nobody would ever wanna be a part of, it's a connected one and it's a loud one. And it's one where very sort of enriching support exists. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you so much for being a disruptor of sorts, a disruptor of silence and the stigma. As much as you are a support, I lovingly call you a disruptor of all. the things we need. to improve. I love I love that term. I'm gonna use it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Please do. Please do. And, doctor Zucker, thank you so much for sharing so much of yourself with us here today and the work that you do and your support for the people who are going through this. To everyone who has joined us here today, if you are listening today because you are in the middle of a loss right now, we see you. You are not alone in this. And if you would like to learn more about how empathy supports pregnancy and infant loss, please ask your HR team about how to access support through empathy. Thank you all so much for being here today. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, everybody. Any questions from the audience?